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Banseka Kayembe
At a time of deeply serious politics, we appear to have fewer politicians we can actually take seriously. Somewhat relegated to fringes, the Green Party has been increasingly positioning itself as a real alternative. Enter self-titled “eco-populist” Zack Polanski, who was elected as party leader last week, and is already capturing attention with his ability to deliver sharp, clear messaging in what’s fair to say is a pretty hostile political media environment.
Naked Politics founder Banseka Kayembe sat down with Zack to talk about his unconventional media strategy, the rewards and risks of personality politics, reclaiming patriotism from the far-right, his thoughts on the Corbyn-Sultana left party, and his vision for a more democratic political system.
Banseka Kayembe: Since last year people have been saying we need a “Joe Rogan of the Left”. You’ve done something somewhat unprecedented as part of your leadership launch and started a podcast. You’ve also been doing vox pops in Clacton-on-Sea. Can you give me an insight into how you are intending to use media as part of your political strategy? What impact do you think it will have?
Zack Polanski: The right have absolutely flooded channels, including Nigel Farage, who has more Tiktok followers than every single MP combined. Do I think that's because Nigel Farage is in some way more interesting, engaging or more popular? No, I don't think it's those things at all. I think they were just particularly good quite early on at recognising the gaps there, while the rest of us were probably a little bit lost in the old media, or speaking to newspapers or broadcasters.
I think the positive here is social media gives access to everyone to get involved with the political conversation. We can have a whole separate conversation about how problematic social media can be in terms of its algorithms, but I think there's a huge opportunity there that anyone who has an opinion now or wants to be heard. As long as they've got access to the technology, they can get themselves out there and have those conversations.
I think you're something like my 107th interview in the last week, and so it's been amazing to get my voice and my story out there but actually, if this continues to happen in a few months time I'll go, why didn't I grow the party more? What I want to see is Green Party members, councillors, people who aren't even in the party yet, but who align with the things I'm saying, all starting to do it more. So it's not just me talking, but actually it's an entire movement that is saying: actually, we've got something to say, and we're gonna say it boldly, clearly, and it's going to excite people.
And sure there's a danger to that. People will say silly things, and every so often I'll get asked if I condemn the thing that user 7491 said, and I think that's okay. I think [its about] making sure that we're really clear about what we stand for; not everyone who speaks absolutely represents the party, but they do represent a broader movement.
Banseka Kayembe: This idea that you almost want to democratise the messaging is very interesting, because normally with political parties, it's the opposite. It's all very centralised, really tightly held. I think that's an interesting idea, that you're essentially going to trust people with messaging.
Zack Polanski: Yeah, and it's already starting to happen. I was on The Jeremy Vine Show with a right wing talking head, and she accused me of wanting to nationalise Sainsbury's? Although, shout out to Zohran Mamdani who is talking about nationalising grocery stores- I think there's a conversation to be had there, but that's different to nationalising Sainsbury's, I've never said that. I [later] saw on Instagram a video circulating of this exchange and then suddenly, when she says “nationalise Sainsbury's” it all goes red, and the Soviet national anthem plays. It was funny, so I shared it! Now that does not mean that I agree with the message, that's just me recognising that people have opinions, and people can have their own humor with it.
"I'm not shy, but actually I don't want to hoard the attention. I very quickly want to use that attention to go: here's some other people you can listen to.
Naked Politics: You’ve been a rallying figure and brought what looks like significant numbers of new people into the party. I think you’re a really strong figure who will likely attract more support, but do you see any dangers or pitfalls if a party gets too reliant on one central figure? How can the Greens as a political force be resilient against this?
Zack Polanski: There are lots of people in the Green Party who speak really powerfully, who have really interesting stories, and if I'm really honest, have more insightful ideas based on their lived experience in their communities than I could possibly imagine. I'm not shy, but actually I don't want to hoard the attention. I very quickly want to use that attention to go: here's some other people you can listen to.
Mothin Ali [the new Deputy Leader of The Green Party] came to fame in the national press, because there was a riot in the ward that he represents in Leeds. Tommy Robinson, that bastion of patriotism apparently, shared a video of Mothin saying that he was inciting the riots, whereas actually what was happening was Mothin was literally putting his body on the line to try and stop the fires and move bins from getting in fires. I'd encourage any councillor not to get involved like that when you're elected as a councillor; your job is to speak for your constituents and represent them. But what an incredible thing to do, what a brave and courageous thing to do, and obviously I don't condemn him for a second, quite the opposite. That's why he's called the "Hero of Harehills".
Banseka Kayembe: Strategically you have led with issues in a lot of your media appearances, bringing the conversation away from personality and back to policies.
Zack Polanski: You can say something really important, and it suddenly starts to set the agenda. I said [on a radio show] that if I was a single mother and I was starving and had no money whatsoever, was living in poverty and my baby was going to die, I can see why I might steal baby food or baby nappies if I was that desperate.
Of course, the Daily Mail ran a headline saying I was saying “shoplifting was justified”. And you know what? If your baby is going to die and needs it just to survive, that is justified. Now I don't endorse shoplifting but I want to find ways to make sure that people can survive in society without having to need to commit a crime. I also know that lots of people who shoplift aren't living in poverty, and that's a different, separate conversation, but it's also undeniably true that some people are shoplifting because they have no other option…they're living in poverty because of decades of austerity.
I think being able to say these very obvious things - that suddenly everyone clutches their pearls at and says, what an outrageous thing to say- is also what we need to use that attention and that focus for to go: sure, you might find this controversial, but here's the facts, and suddenly it's not so controversial [anymore].
I think as each day passes, it becomes increasingly obvious to me and hopefully to other people too, that actually I still don't think it's necessary, and I'd rather people just join the Green Party and we all work together under one banner
Banseka Kayembe: Lots of young people and others have been flocking to “Your Party”. There was also a poll of 16-17 year olds where 23% intend to vote Reform as well. Do you think the Green Party has work to do, to appeal to a broader range of people who typically vote for the left?
Zack Polanski: We've got a huge amount of work to do. The caveat to that is there's lots of data to show that more young women are voting for the Green Party than young men are voting for Reform. That's not me being complacent- any young man who's voting for Reform is someone that I'm concerned about and want to speak to- but at the same time, I think it's important that this is always framed accurately. The Green Party in the past has not been considered important enough to talk about the rise in young women voting Green.
700,000 people have signed up to a mailing list for a party or a movement that doesn't even exist yet, but what I am seeing more and more online is people saying they can really clearly see how the Green Party is cooking. We’re not just having conversations about what the name is or what our policies are, we’re just straight out of the gates and going for it. I don't say that to slander Jeremy or Zarah, I really like both of them, and I think if they do get up and running with something, I'm still curious about what that is. But I think as each day passes, it becomes increasingly obvious to me and hopefully to other people too, that actually I still don't think it's necessary, and I'd rather people just join the Green Party and we all work together under one banner.
"the word plastic absolutely describes Keir Starmer. He doesn't believe what he's saying, and he's totally malleable to whatever's going on in that moment.
Banseka Kayembe: Yes, time is ticking in many respects, right? I'm thinking about that particularly with regards to “operation raise the flag”, which I personally have found quite startling. I'm based in Dartford; I went into town yesterday to get a bus, and for the first time, I just saw a whole load of England flags and Union Jack flags that had been put up. I've got no problem with the Union Jack flag or the England flag, but within this broader context about migration, that gets racialised quite a lot as well, it's slightly disturbing and uncomfortable.
Zack Polanski: I'm sorry you're having that experience. I know it's not a unique experience, because many of my friends and indeed, my boyfriend talk about the fear that's around right now.
I hear the same thing you said over and over again, of not having a problem with people waving the flag if they're doing it for patriotism, but when it's so clearly in a context where we've got people protesting outside hotels with people seeking asylum in them, and threatening them and the use of the flag there, then at the very least, we should have a Prime Minister who is actually having a complex discourse, or an empathic discourse around the flag.
Instead, we've got these absolute fools, and I just don't believe them. I don't believe Yvette Cooper when she says that “my house is covered in flags” or, you know, “I always sit in front of a flag”. Sure, if someone wants to do that, that's fine, but it's a little bit weird and I think a little bit imported from America. I think you can tell when you don't believe a politician.
Keir Starmer attacked me yesterday, calling me a plastic progressive; I literally don't know what he means, which is never great comms. And secondly, the word plastic absolutely describes Keir Starmer. He doesn't believe what he's saying, and he's totally malleable to whatever's going on in that moment. I think there's loads of criticisms people can legitimately make of me who don't agree with what I'm saying, but I would really challenge them to suggest that I don't believe what I'm saying, or that I'm not consistent in what I'm saying.
In terms of a progressive kind of patriotism. I think it's about not ceding the ground to the right. Nigel Farage is not a patriot. Patriots don't take money from oil and gas companies and then push misinformation about climate change. Patriots don't support multi millionaires and billionaires and support continuing austerity that destroys our communities. And patriots are not nationalists who hate people in their country who don't look or sound like them. Patriots recognise the strength of diversity in this country that does bring, sometimes with it tension as you get different communities rubbing alongside each other, but within that tension, I think, is always what's made our country one of the best countries in the world.
We are reclaiming patriotism. These are the things we're proud of in this country, and at every single moment, calling out Nigel Farage and calling out the corruption, the money that they've taken from these oil and gas companies, from gambling companies, from arms trade companies, because they are representing the people that have paid them, as opposed to the constituents that they're supposed to serve.
"Everyone in the joint citizens assembly started making much more bold recommendations, and I think that's another example, actually, of how we really need to make sure that young people are at the front and center of our politics.
Banseka Kayembe: You’ve talked a lot about proportional representation, but do you have a broader vision for democracy? What other democratic changes would you like to be campaigning for a green party leader?
Zack Polanski: We're kind of finishing where we started, because this relates to media and democratising media…I think we need to find ways of making sure people are more included in the democratic process. I don't support referendums on everything…I think most people don't want to have politics in their life every single day.
We do need to abolish the House of Lords, and there's a motion going to Green Party Conference which will perhaps be voted on which I think is interesting: using a sortition system for the House of Lords, so actually turning the House of Lords into a big citizens assembly. There's loads of questions I have about that, and more detail I want, but it's definitely got my attention in terms of being a proposal.
I think more widely, citizens assemblies are vastly being underused. A council did a citizens assembly on the climate crisis, and they ran it in parallel with a citizens assembly for young people. The “adult version” was not that radical and not that bold, but they were making changes. The young citizens' assembly came to present to the adults, and then suddenly the adult version got a lot more bold and radical because they'd heard the voices of young people who were terrified and scared based on the information and science they'd seen and gone actually, you can make society better and help tackle the climate crisis, and protect nature. Everyone in the joint citizens assembly started making much more bold recommendations, and I think that's another example, actually, of how we really need to make sure that young people are at the front and center of our politics.
I hate it when I hear politicians say we need to be inspired by the young people. I'm just like, no help young people to get in positions of power, whether that's being elected, giving them a platform, or working to amplify their voices. Actually, we don't need politicians just speaking for young people, we actually need to hear from young people themselves.
I do include older people in this too. They have a whole set of issues as well and I think it's really important those voices to be heard, but making sure that we're actually hearing from the people who are affected and the communities, rather than politicians claiming to speak for everyone. I think that the relationship to democracy is much more at the lower grassroots level where everyone feels like politicians are more accessible to them and working with them rather than speaking at them. And I think that does involve transforming our processes.
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